Jija Sohn is a Japanese-Korean artist in residence with a bodywork based on water as an intimate and self-reflective space. The research aims at an artistic translation of this unique quality of intimacy, creating a safe and alternative space that can bring new depth to our daily time, helping us to connect, think and work in ways that honour ourselves.
During the weeks of residency in May 2025, the research translated into a wish to have conversations in order to enter and observe the physically complex and full landscape of happenings between people. The following transcript was initially proposed as a research tool to observe how our vocabulary becomes an action that manifests in the conversation dynamics. However, from the point of view of documentation, there was also a desire to do justice to Jija’s sensitivity to the physical dimension by asking, how reading the conversation could be an affective experience?
The transcript is of a conversation on the 7th of May 2025 between Jija Sohn and Kadri Sirel, the curator of documentation and archiving practices in Lavanderia a Vapore.
It can be read in various ways.
First, as a horizontal chat between two people in particularly low personal moments finding each other. Secondly, as our research tool by following the colour coding: the purple underlines vocabulary and the pink highlights moments when we agreed that we were resonating with each other. Thirdly, as a slowly unfolding and relationally entangled dictionary observing the emersion of the following questions:
What makes us feel good?
How can the pleasure of co-creating de-enchant the asymmetry of individualism that rewards us good feelings for exploitation, productivity and achievement?
How can we revolutionalize how we as a society think of support according to what feels supporting?
passion:
Jija: Where are you in your mind?
Kadri: Aehm, where am I? I feel quite present.
Jija: Hhmm.
Kadri: Yeah. What about you?
Jija: I’m curious. Before me. Do you know where this comes from? This presence?
Kadri: I guess, look, it comes from… ehm. I think it has something to do with the trajectory of our conversations. And from sensing a progression in my state of creativity. Yes, I think this morning was at a good pace – I feel like I did something!
Jija: Yeah, like. WORK!
Kadri: I WORKED!
Jija and Kadri: Hahahahaha!
Kadri: Exactly!
Jija: So productive! (laughing) So proud of you!!!
Kadri: (laughing) I’ve been so productive!
Jija: (continues laughing) Hey everyone, Kadri had a productive day!!!
Kadri and Jija: Ahahahahaha. Oeh.
Kadri: Okay. So, let’s analyse this now. This sense of productivity. Because we said the other day that it gives a feeling of accomplishment.
Jija: Yes.
Kadri: A feeling like you have arrived somewhere or that at least you have found a thread you can… can continue holding. Ehm. But also…
…wait, now I’m trying to see if I’m trying to bullshit you or myself (both giggling) but I think it came from a place of not forcing it.
Jija: (with a breath out) Yeah.
Kadri: So that’s the point of. Of. That.
Jija: Yeah. And plus. It became productive.
Kadri: Eh, ehehe. (with an elevated voice) Productive?
Jija: You didn’t force, but the outcome was productive. It must be a nice feeling.
Kadri: Yeah, I suppose. Hm. I’m trying to see through this state a bit. Because. I don’t know… So, for example, the conversation we had on Monday…
Jija: …hmm…
Kadri: …about passionlessness.
Jija: Si! Hihi (giggles) PASSION! Non-passion!
Jija and Kadri: Passion-LESS!
Kadri: Oh but somehow. Ehm. We talked about embracing that state and not trying to make it become something else. Not trying to bring in passion. Or to turn on the switch as we said the other day. Just to simply stay there. To see what there is already.
Jija: Yes.
Kadri: And where within this, where this, does the. Oehm. I don’t even know how to call it.
Jija: Hm.
Kadri: Inspiration or idea? Or creativity? Desire???
Jija: Mhmh!
Kadri: Or, something to follow if that makes sense! Something to follow with your curiosity. Where does it come from if it doesn’t present itself so obviously?
Jija: Hmmm.
Kadri: And who knows how it is going to be tomorrow?
Jija: Yeah exactly! Will it change? Will it stay?
Kadri: (breathing out) Yes…
Kadri and Jija: Hm.
Jija: You look pleasurable. Your eyes are saying I made it, I’m doing it!
Kadri and Jija: Hahahahaha.
Kadri: (sadly) Yes.
…
Hmm.
happy feelings:
Jija: Wow but I’m just realizing. How can we be so happy about it when we are productive? Is it because of the expectation we get from ourselves or from the feeling of being surrounded by an office or from… For example, I was doing this training this morning… I was really happy because of feeling like I made it – “I’m dancing now! I’m getting to know new people!” Very productive feeling. Aeh. This feeling like – Oh, I’m making it! That I’m in a wave of producing somehow! It’s a shift that makes us feel happy. I wonder where it comes from?
Kadri: Yes. It’s very true what you say about how feeling productive makes us happy…
Jija: …yes…
Kadri: …and this makes me ask how do we measure… how do we think about our worth because of all this value connoted to being productive…
Jija: …hmm…
Kadri: …and then the question is what is all this production? Are the things we call productive related to producing tangible and somehow quantifiable things? For example, now I’m working on the „blog“ and I can distinguish that I started with „article nr 1“, I’m working on „article nr 2“ and I feel like my „to-do list“ is becoming more comprehensible and that makes me feel good…
Jija: …yes, yes…
Kadri …aeh, well, and yes, I guess it’s normal and natural to also feel excited about these things but then based on what you said, it made me ask how do we think about the impact of our presence. No? Because uhm… uhm…
Jija: …is it maybe relational? Like, the moment when your work becomes communicative? For example, I did “this” and “this”, I can see “this” as a product to communicate to someone: I can say that I’m here, I’m doing this! Perhaps when it’s very clear to explain what is being made then that moment is experienced as more present?
Kadri: How do you mean?
Jija: Like this impact of presence… how do we measure the impact of our presence? In this, productivity is kind of the key because it makes us communicate in a clear way – this is what I made! And I can communicate it, I can tell or I can show people that a certain clear frame or object is there. It belongs to our language. Work language maybe? That I am here, I am present because I made this!
Kadri: Mhmh.
Jija: Or like, what you did, you can tell: what you did today, your to-do list, you can communicate!
Kadri: Yes…
co-presence:
Kadri: …hmm…
Jija: …hmmmm.
Kadri: Well, also the conversation we had with Chiara at the lunch table. It touched a bit upon this… question of how can we work differently when instead of asking what and how much we produce we question the conditions where this work is happening. So, it’s. And I think, then. Also, coming back to this reflection of – what is my Job?
Jija: (laughing) What is your Job?:D
Kadri: What is my job in the meaning of how do I get a sense of fulfilment from knowing that I’m doing my job?
Jija: Mhmh.
Kadri: From knowing that I’m doing a Good Job!
Jija: Yes! How do you get this?
Kadri: And, and, and yes! I mean. Thinking about these emotions of today I like… Like I. I tackled the to-do list!!!
Jija: Yes, yes! Immediately!
Kadri: Yes! (gestures a sword movement) Like, AHHAA!
Jija: Mhmh.
Kadri: And uhm. And somehow. Being able to cross things off, making this map of things “to do” more tangible – it’s had to do with that somehow. But then another point of what I’m wondering is how…
Jija: …mhmh…
Kadri: …how??? Like what remains invisible to me?
Jija: Invisible?
Kadri: Invisible. In the sense that… how much the value of the work that I do is not related to….to…. „crossing things off“ and „publishing“ and „getting ready this documentation kit“. You know, like you said – these things are clear and communicative but how much the value of my work is in me… simply being here?
Jija: Yeah, being present.
Kadri: Yes.
Jija: And that’s the thing you mostly enjoy, being here?
Kadri: Yes… in fact, it is like…
……
……
Yeah, it’s enjoyable but somehow it’s also… for example, the conversations that I’m having with you or when being in the office and contributing to this collective cloud of ideas that are bouncing off one another. Sometimes by making jokes or other times it’s simply seeing someone’s face that can unlock a thought process in unknowing ways. Or… going through the three days of Spring Rolls by simply drifting along with the flow of the day, having contact with people…
…….
…….
…it’s almost like the value of participating, of being here. Because my presence impacts other presences. I’ve also observed this in this collective that I told you about.
Jija: The Estonian?
Kadri: Yes, exactly. Where… it really feels like it’s a cocktail of presences and how the thought is moving when someone is missing…
Jija: …mhmh…
Kadri: …and when someone is present.
Jija: Mmmm.
Kadri: Like, where do we get stuck, how the thought is unlocked? There is worth in each presence. In the presences that are around you.
Kadri: Why are you smiling?:D:D:D
Jija: I have this wish now to record your eyes when you are thinking!!!
Kadri: Ahahahaha!
Jija: Hahaha I don’t know how they do it, they go up and then they do this little (gestures half-circles with hands). Just the eyes!
the doge
extension:
Jija: Can you ask me a question? I feel like I’m still attuning, looking for an entrance. Where am I? Like, how to start?
Kadri: Where are you?
Jija: Yeah, hehehe. Thank you! Yeah, now, in this moment, I tried to arrive but I’m still not arriving and then, I got excited with your eyes…
Kadri: …mmm…
Jija: …with your stories and I’m still finding my moment to HÕK (makes a penetrating gesture). And, yes, that’s where I am now. I resonated with the fact that being present is something pleasurable. I was thinking about this morning when I was dancing and I didn’t really mind about the topic or who was there. They were so inclusive, and so gentle to me, trying to include two languages, making me feel very comfy. And then, there was one person that I was paired for a duet. And I got so into it – this dancing together. Because it’s two people almost like creating a bubble, and, yeah, just feeling being in the moment – being busy with what’s next, what’s next, what’s next. I could stay there. I didn’t leave: I didn’t think about future or about past experiences. Yeah, this.
Kadri: Maybe we can talk more about the dance?
Jija: This dance was in the beginning. We were making images with two bodies. The task was, how can you create one picture together and stay there. And then change. Just this, very simple. Making images together. To have connections.
Kadri: Mhmh.
Jija: There’s contact between the bodies that create a sculpture: so, we do like “this”, and then like “this” (gestures sculptures with the body). And then slowly, they asked us to make it faster. So, little pauses, smaller pauses…
Kadri: …mhmh…
Jija: …and then slowly not so many pauses but we were moving. But always through the images, images, images. And then, because of the growing disconnections they asked us: now, it’s like you’re in a cat’s fight! You are cats fighting with each other! There was more… uhm… like a challenge! We were challenging each other. So there was more… communicating. Before it was more like being in the same image – more abstract communications but then it got more like… excited communications. And then, maybe, it’s just that, in that part, it’s just that.
Kadri: Well, it made me think about elongation.
Jija: Mhmh. Elongation, what is it?
Kadri: Elongation (makes a gesture with hands), like uhm, it’s uhm. What you said! Hahaha. Like when we were in the water you asked us to elongate, to make longer each other’s bodies. It feels like it’s something present in your thinking and your work. I’m wondering if the dancing is somehow for you related to this idea of elongation?
Jija: Possibly. Well, they didn’t use this word nor talked about helping each other or anything. But then it becomes… we were kind of one thing moving. Always moving in connections or like there is something… er… helping or being helped. So there was always this kind of… maybe an extension?
Kadri: Extension, yes! This was the word!
…
(breathing out) Extension!
Jija: Extension!
Kadri: I’m realizing that we haven’t talked about it until now. How do you feel about it? Should we go into it?
Jija: Yeeaahh!! Why not? I like this extension, somehow! Also physically I like it. Like a long time ago, do you remember, this stick? You have a phone and you have a long stick and you can make a selfie? Now it’s gone…
Kadri: It’s gone?
Jija: I think we have a different technique now. Different kind of… more technological mwhaHAHAHA this (gestures a sharp opening) TŠAHH the camera. Or I like this physicality of suddenly BLUP, and it’s longer!:D
…
support:
Yes. I just wrote yesterday to Michela because there was an email from Carlotta about feedback. I wrote about my imagination of parenting… because one… maybe I told you a little bit about… one single mom didn’t have so much support. And then so… the game was… to follow the kids… but she was confused, she could not follow two people at the same time. So she was a bit like… Ah! What to do? She looked tired. And I was imagining an extension of the parent. Like an assistant parent, an assistant that could help divide the task. That would allow the mother to get assisting…
Kadri: …mhmh…
Jija: …this is for me like, the extension now ideally. Like a little bit ambiguous, which blurs the social roles. So that the stranger could help also in that moment.
Kadri: So it’s almost like, a system that doesn’t close itself to the parents following the kids but it becomes extended to the parents, that they get supported too. The kid will be supported and so will the parent.
Jija: More like through the parents – assistant parents.
Kadri: Yeah, when we were there I remember you told me about your friends…
Jija: …my friends, yeah, yeah…
Kadri: …who are trying to raise a baby while flat-sharing to extend this support system around them.
Jija: Exactly!
Kadri: But also extend the idea of family.
Jija: Exactly. They want to avoid this nuclear family! They are so against this, just this nuclear! To be a bubble.
Kadri: Mhmh. The extension of support… for some reason, it brings me to the water.
Jija: You mean extension as this kind of idea?
Kadri: Yes I’m wondering if there is a connection between what you were saying now about assistant parenting and the bodywork we did in the water with Watsu. Because there you also talked about the extension of support. Maybe the extension of… yeah I don’t know… the extension of support by being in dialogue with someone’s needs?
expansion:
Jija: Because this is a way to feel we can expand! Like… whooomh (makes a gesture of lifting someone in the air). When the movement becomes amplified. Like, I just did “this” (gestures a movement), but the movement becomes like a whooomhwhooomh! (gestures expansion of the movement) This is such an empowering moment for me personally, it is when I feel empowered. I can jump like “this” (gestures jumping), but somebody is doing “this” (gestures lifting)… when somebody is helping me and allows my idea to become bigger. It’s a nice feeling.
Kadri: I feel there is something.
Jija: In the amplification?
Kadri: Mhmh.
Jija: Hmm.
Jija: What kind of something?
Kadri: (laughing) What colour?
Jija: What colour? Which mood? Hehehe.
Kadri: I don’t know. It somehow feels relevant to support.
Jija: Hm.
Kadri: And… To how we give support. Because too often support means meeting someone’s minimum requirements. Like government support.
Jija: Mhmh, and minimum wage.
Kadri: Yeah, minimum wage, government support, social benefits…
Jija: Exactly.
Kadri: The minimum conditions that one needs to survive.
Jija: Mhmh, yes.
Kadri: Which is a dehumanizing and… uhm… cruel approach to “support”.
Jija: Yeah.
Kadri: Like you give someone something…
Jija: …but you have to stay there or something, you cannot get extra nice things.
Kadri: Exactly, so… in the end what it establishes is this very closed class system where one is never given enough to go above the circumstances they are within – because you are granted the minimum conditions for surviving.
amplification:
Jija: Mhmh.
Kadri: But there is something in amplification the way you described it… that…
…
…
…that somehow brings, I don’t know how to say it, but breath to support. Like support becomes a breathing… breathing… ehm… like it becomes a felt action…
Jija: …hmm…
Kadri: …not a closed concept. And! It has something to do with seeing someone and then allowing them to become more!
Jija: Hmm. To elevate!
Kadri: To uplift! Yes!
Jija: Because when the government speaks about support there is always this hidden agenda: you have to stay where you are! For example, my mom is on welfare because she can’t work, she has a disability. But she really can’t work. But to keep receiving welfare she has to stay in this kind of apartment and not in that kind of apartment. There is always this exchange: you have to stay in your social place! I give you the minimum and you stay there, okay? Don’t move! It feels like this. There is always a sacrifice, that while I receive this I have to sacrifice some part. I’m not free…
Kadri: …yes…
Jija: …it’s as if the government is naming your place. And I feel these amplifications and elevations are taking out this thing. It becomes like: okay you want to go there? I’m gonna give you the breath! Together! So you can go! The physicality is very different. The government support is like an exchange. But this one is more like: okay, you wanna go beyond now? So let’s find energy, collective energy, to go a bit beyond.
Kadri: Mhmh.
…
exchange:
Kadri: Yes, it’s almost like what you described with this situation of your mom. That. We give you support…
Jija: …yes…
Kadri: …but for you to keep receiving this support you need to keep meeting the conditions for which we keep giving you the support which means you need to keep meeting the conditions of poverty.
Jija: Yeah exactly.
Kadri: There is no way to somehow break this circle of…
Jija: …yeah excatly…
Kadri: …of going out from that dynamic.
Jija: Yes, always support with dependency.
Kadri: Hm.
Jija: There is a benefit, I can get this benefit, I depend on this benefit. But it’s not necessary to make you feel seen or something. And… Like… Amplifications make us… or how was it… you used the word synchronizations… it’s happening because it’s a movement going in the same direction but it’s also saying yes to someone’s freedom or someone’s wish to go beyond.
resonance:
Kadri: Mhmh.
Jija: That’s support. That feels like I’m supported. When someone is saying yes to my wish with an action.
Kadri: I’m wondering about the relationship between synchronization and amplification. An image that comes to mind is being on this walking bridge, when you start jumping with someone in the same rhythm and the bridge starts to (gestures a bouncing motion with hands)… it takes up this feedback and starts to bounce. So there is something in synchronization that calls for amplification?
Jija: Ahah! Because you need to find the resonance together!
Kadri: Yes, the resonance!
…
Resonance has the power to break architecture!
Jija: Hmm, yes! And maybe coming back to the question of how we work. Yeah, what if the way we support each other in the work is amplification in some way rather than… exchange? (gestures sharp motion with hands).
Kadri: Transaction!
Jija: Transaction, yeah!
Kadri: Yes… there is something revolutionary in this, I feel like resonance is a condition for revolutions to take place…
…
Kadri: I don’t know why this makes me think about the… Like, I read about the Taylor Swift concert.
Jija: (laughing) Taylor Swift concert?
Kadri: Taylor Swift concert. I don’t know where this was. Or it was in Milan or… I don’t, I, I can search for this article but basically she was in a stadium covered in cement…
Jija: …ahah. Cement?
Kadri: Cement. But the fans… there were a lot of fans… the fans were jumping…
Jija: …ahah…
Kadri: …and this cement started to move.
Jija: Ah!
Kadri: Like, it created a vibration in the, hehe…
Jija: …goodness!
Kadri: …in the ground basically within a material that was supposed to be the hardest and most resistant.
Jija: Yeah, very stable. And what was the article about? That there was a danger or that it was wow, great, there were so many fans or?
Kadri: Yeah, it was more like: wow!
Jija: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Kadri: Like wowuhuhuh!
Kadri and Jija: Hehehehehe.
…
conversation:
Kadri: You wanna say something?
Jija: Nonono!
Kadri: Well!
Jija: Siii?
Kadri: This makes me think about the conversation!
Jija: Uuh?
Kadri: Mmh?
Jija and Kadri: Mmmhmhhh? Hahahaha!
Jija: (laughing) What? A Conversation?
Kadri: Well. Because this is the idea, no? To have a conversation!
Jija: Yes! What kind of conversation? What kind of form of conversation?
Kadri: Your conversations!
Jija: Yeah!
Kadri: Yeah! Like THE conversations, and I’m wondering, Jija, tell me…
Jija: …mhmh…
Kadri: …if there is… what is… where are… expansion… amplification… syncronization… present…
Kadri and Jija giggling.
Kadri: …in the conversation!
Jija: Where?
Kadri: If and where? Is there a relationship?
Jija: Mhmhmh!
…
Jija: (breathing out) Yeah! I don’t know if all the conversations have this kind of nature… but I get excited. Like, I get more into the conversation happening here between us. It’s not so much a transaction of what we know.
Kadri: Mhmh.
Jija: That, I’m gonna tell you something, and I need to listen to what you’re telling me. But it’s more like an alive situation that yesterday’s word „the tales“, like catching the tales… the tales?
Kadri: Oh, the tails! Catching the tails! Mhmh, yes?
Jija: To get to know where… where this conversation goes, a bit more like co-creating the thoughts. Or clearly helping each other’s thought process. Also, it feels like what we are doing now is a bit like this. Like, by having questions I get helped by you in my thought process. I’m discovering a little bit, I’m extending a little bit…
Kadri: …mmm…
Jija: …my thought process.
Kadri: Mmm!
Jija: Or just like looking at your eyes or just like looking at your energetical bouncing – it is maybe a synchronization. This physicality of like …trying to synchronize…or trying to feel something… it’s not …it’s very different from just thinking along because there are some stimulations.
Kadri: Hm.
…
Jija: So now even when you said „hm“, then I’m like: huh! You are curious about stimulations? Hm! Oh! What is that?
Kadri: Hahaha!
Jija: There is little bouncing.
Kadri: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Jija: Then, I don’t analyse it like this but physically I feel something.
Kadri: (smiling) Mhmh. I see!
Jija: Yes. So there is also more feelings, I guess, in the conversation. Affections.
Kadri: Touching!
Jija: Touching! Hahahaha!
Kadri: (laughing) Is it making a comeback?
Jija: (laughing) Touching coming!
Kadri and Jija: Hahahaha!
Jija: Yes. Do you feel that’s part of the touching?
Kadri: Somehow yes.
…
co-creation:
I feel like there is touching involved. You were touched by my (gestures towards facial expressions).
Jija: Hm. For example, yes.
Kadri: And this activated something in return…
…
Aaaah!
Jija: (laughing) And this also!
Kadri: Ooooh!
Jija and Kadri: Hahahaha!
Kadri: Okay, yes. So let’s talk about touching.
Jija: Mhmh.
Kadri: Because there is the touching happening on the level of what we are saying. Being touched by your words activates my thought processes! It becomes expanded and so do I. So it’s almost like uhm, uhm, we are together in a journey that is unfolding before us. But then! There is a touching happening on the level of feeling the person. Sometimes you are also looking at me in this way with studying eyes and I wonder what is Jija thinking now haha! And this is also somehow affecting me on the level of… of decision making, no? It is making me ask how can I continue participating in this conversation based on how am I reading the other person. Should I keep talking about… keep chasing the tail of my thought process or make a question instead? It’s like a little dance of…
Jija: Yes. And how… how… what is the way you lead your choice-making?
Kadri: Uuuuuh!
Jija: What’s the experience?
Kadri: Expectations!!!
Jija and Kadri: Hohohohohoho! Hahahahahaha!
Jija: Like a comedy! Expectations! Nobody laughs but us!:D
Kadri: No but I think it is somehow a negotiation between ehm… what… Wait, let me unpack that.
Jija: Is it then a mix of things, no? You say where you are, what maybe this research is expecting, what I am expecting, and what could be a playful topic. It’s many things up and down.
Kadri: And for you?
Jija: I feel like… yeah… it feels like a search of curiosity. Like, a curiosity of how… feeling like I’m together with you and speaking from here (gestures the space between us). Like there is this kind of snowballing or something. And asking, how can I access this with my curiosity? What makes this ball to…
Kadri: …to keep…
Jija: …yeah to roll.
Kadri: Yes.
Jija: I think I’m busy with this.
Kadri: Snowballing.
Jija: Snowballing, yes.
Kadri: Co-creation.
Jija: Like a co-learning.
Kadri: It’s almost like building a snowman together.
Jija: Yeah, like. Ooh! You wanna do this! Now you wanna do the hands? Okay! We go there! Let’s stay there a little bit.
Kadri: Mhmh.
Jija: Like when you say let’s stay in the conversation about amplification or… bringing the topics… it’s like, I feel it symbolizes this: okay, now we go from here to there.
Kadri: Hmm. Okay. I think it’s getting clearer to me what is interesting in the conversation for you – where and how is it happening to you. Almost like describing the shape and the dynamic of this in-between space. That we are filling the in-between space with some textures, and temperatures, that are then touching us… each other somehow.
Jija: Yeah. Even sometimes stay in silence. Just to stay in the… for example, yesterday we were both thinking about something and watching over there, looking at the trees. Like this in-between space of us just floating somewhere.
Kadri: Hm. Mhmh.
Jija: And finding where to go next.
Kadri: (dreamy) Yes.
Jija: That’s a nice feeling. A co-existence, a synchronization where I’m not busy with oh! Okay! Silence! Okay! I have to fill in the gap! There are not so many anxieties there. It’s very peaceful.
Kadri: Uuuuuh! Okay! (writing down) co-existing, yes. Peaceful?
Jija: Kind of peaceful, yes, because I don’t feel pressure to fill the gap.
Kadri: So you are not busy with producing the conversation.
Jija: As if almost this moment of silence was needed to co-create again somehow…
Kadri: Which brings us back into… Where we started from…
Jija: Passion? Passion-less hahahahaha?
Kadri: (laughing) No, what we were saying about this worth in our presence, in our being here, alive. Like being co-present.
Jija: (elevatedly) Hm! Yeah, the physicality of being co-present, the physicality of a conversation.
Kadri: Mmm!
Photos taken by Kadri and Jija at a swimming pool during an experience inspired by Watsu (Shiatsu in Water) and Water Dance proposed by Jija for the staff of Lavanderia.
Article curated by Kadri Sirel in conversation with Jija Sohn.
Support from the book “Deep Fried Feels” by Clusterduck.